Wednesday, April 22, 2009

More Thoughts on Why They Don't Want to be in Heaven

I have had more thoughts on this topic. As related in the last post in one Tomorrow's World program Meredith cited all these Biblical personages and insisted that they did not go to Heaven, then he brought up Lucifer and shouted, "Now there's someone who wanted to go to Heaven!" thus implying that the believers' expectation of going to Heaven is not just inaccurate but completely evil and Satanic.

That thought of Meredith's is not true. This thought does not even work within the teachings of HWA. What Meredith said that Satan wanted to go to heaven and thus implying that only Satan would want to go to Heaven is not true and actually has many problems, even if we assume HWA's belief system to be accurate.

The COGs teaches that the saved will be centered on the earth, not in Heaven. However they also teach that when we become immortal God beings we shall be able to transport ourselves wherever we wish instantaneously. Observe how LCG Evangelist Richard Ames describe the abilities of those who will have been deified. "Imagine being able to travel about the universe instantaneously! One galaxy will be as close to you as another. God, as the Creator of the heavens, wants to share all of His creation with you." ("Will We Conquer Space?", Tomorrow's World, November-December 2000, p. 12. Emphasis mine.) If God is to share all of creation with us, why not Heaven as well?

And also the "Presiding Evangelist" Meredith himself also wrote in Your Ultimate Destiny, under the heading "Inheriting a Universe", the following:
Then we will have glorified spirit bodies that will not be subject to physical laws, as we know them now. We will be able to hurtle throughout the universe far faster than the speed of light, for we will be full members of the Creator Family—the Family of God—able to move at the speed of thought! (Page 18. Emphasis mine.)
So with all these abilities surely it will be possible to go to Heaven to meet God the Father up there. We shall not be trying to overthrow God, unlike Lucifer, but simply wishing to spend time with our beloved heavenly Father. Yes, according to LCG and the rest, the saved will be very busy on earth, but we will be immortal God beings that never tire. Surely we will be able to go up into Heaven with such abilities as Meredith and Ames described despite all the busy activities we will have rebuilding the earth.

So the idea that we can't go to Heaven is ridiculous. Even if we shall be busy on the earth, according to LCG's teachings, there is no reason why we cannot go to our Heavenly Father still up there.

So Meredith's thought that because Lucifer wanted to go to Heaven that this makes the desire to go to Heaven evil is shown to be a false analogy. Lucifer wanted to overthrow God. We simply wish to be with our Heavenly Father. There is no comparison to be made between the believer and Lucifer.

Imagine there is a man who lives far away, and some time ago an evil criminal visited him and tried to murder him. Thankfully nothing happened and the man is safe. Later I want go to visit the man because he is a very good friend of mine. But he lives far away so it takes a long time to make the proper arrangements. Then this other man who seems to be a minister and righteous whom I trust meets me. He passionately shouts that it is wrong and evil for me to go visit him, because no other good people we mutually knew ever visited him, and the one who did visit him tried to kill him. Therefore I cannot go. I certainly have no hostility with my friend at all, yet I have been most emphatically told I cannot go.

Does the minister's reasoning make sense?

That is precisely how (un)reasonable Meredith's statement is.

It is nothing more than a false analogy.

Imagine telling a believer that his or her desire to be with God is evil, Satanic even. It is obscene to falsely tell a believer such things. By saying this fundamental yearning is evil and Satanic makes him or her doubt him or herself. If one should be doubtful and even fearful that he or she may be harboring an evil Satanic desire this will cause the well-meaning believer to trust in what Meredith says and thus they become dependent on him.

This is statement of Meredith's is carefully designed to make believers uncertain, fearful and dependent on himself.

That is obscene behavior.

There is no need for anyone to make him or herself dependent on Meredith or any other COG leader, or any man. God is greater than them. God is our Father. It is the most natural and beautiful thing for one to yearn to be with Him. It is not evil and there is certainly nothing Satanic about this desire. There is no need to be ashamed of wishing to be with God.


  1. I am surprise at Meredith’s statement, in that it doesn’t seem to equate to COG theology either!

    The reference to the desire of Satan to ascend to heaven was because of a ‘takeover’ job – he wanted to the position of his creator, God.

    The main reason for declaring people were not in heaven was surely for a quite different reason, that they were not conscious until the resurrection, so their conscious being was effectively nowhere.

    (Yes, you could say that the ‘spirit in man’ is held in Heaven, but that’s a bit beside the point, if the individual has no awareness. It would make little difference where that spirit was held).

    So while the initial destiny of mankind, as a conscious spirit being, is to be on earth, it is just that, an initial destiny, 1000 years or a little more. That is pretty short term in comparison to an eternity.

    I have always thought of that as a starting point as a spirit being, ‘getting the feel’ of being a spirit being, with the universe and beyond as the progressive destiny. That of course would include Heaven.

    And as you say, even in that initial period, where the main focus is on earth, I don’t see that there is any ‘ban’ visits on Heaven.

  2. Questeruk, you are absolutely right that that implication is totally contrary to COG doctrine. As I stated in this post, "This thought does not even work within the teachings of HWA."

    Nevertheless he did say those words to that effect.

    Now what he actually said was this: He mentioned Lucifer and Isaiah 14, and after reading "I will ascend into heaven" he shouted "Now there's someone who wanted to go to Heaven! Think on that. Meditate on that." He said this after explaining that other Biblical personages could not be in Heaven. The implication was very clear to me. What else was I supposed to think?

    However as shown here this obscene thought is nonsense, even within HWA's doctrines.

    But the people watching Tomorrow's World won't know that. They will have to figure that out by themselves. And alas that is rather unlikely.

    So since this statement is actually ridiculous, why did he say it?

    As I have argued in this post, he said it make people fearful they are guilty of doing something very wrong, and they will turn to Meredith to solve this problem. They will be dependent on him.

    If only those watching Tomorrow's World were aware of these things!

  3. RM is just emulating his hero. I remember this same tactic employed by HWA about the trinity and born again concepts.

    He used to mockingly say, prick them with a pin. If they bleed then they can't be born again. He used it as a way to side step a true examination of the concept of assured salvation by grace.

    RM is doing the same with the belief in soul sleep. He wants to make people equate the idea of heavenly ascension as being a slippery slope towards becoming like Satan.

    It's a cheap, lazy and I believe cowardly approach that refuses to lay out both ideas side by side and say what supports each.

    The truth is that there is little to support either conclusively. And that the truly important fact is that there is an afterlife in which we all stand before God. When really isn't all that important.

  4. "Imagine there is a man who lives far away"
    Excellent analogy!

    RF, I didn't realize that this part of Armstrongism was still in my mind. You helped me to see that. Thanks for these two posts!

    I'm all tingly with ideas for posts now. Certain assumptions that I had never realized are clear to me, certain fundamental errors that I had overlooked are right there. My jury may still be out right now on soul-sleep vs. going to Heaven, but I can confidently say that I will no longer be accepting HWA's back story. That's for sure!

    I really appreciate it, RF!
    Thank you! Thanks you! Thank you!